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Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010, 02:59 pm
Joel Rosenberg facts

I know a bit about the background of this case and the information provided on this web site is the most accurate version.

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 09:01 pm (UTC)

I hope the arraignment went ok today.

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 09:50 pm (UTC)

That's fscking horrible! I'm a big fan of Joel's. Almost got to have dinner with him and a group of people after a pro-gun victory here in MN a year or two back.

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 10:11 pm (UTC)

Joel has spoken repeatedly (in each class he taught, at least each one I was at, for example) about how it's generally a bad idea (personally dangerous, inconvenient, unpleasant, etc.) to be a test case. I really hope that he has consulted extensively with his lawyer before asserting his rights aggressively in this situation, since is was one of the classic ways to volunteer to be a test case (asserting rights that seem clear, but are disputed by the current power structure).

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 10:50 pm (UTC)

The problem with that is if nobody's willing to stand up for the rights, well:

"If a man neglect to enforce his rights he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example." Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Dangerous, unpleasant, and inconvenient. Serving in the military was dangerous, unpleasant, and inconveneient . . . but somebody's got to do it.

You go Joel!

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 10:54 pm (UTC)

Hey, I didn't say he shouldn't have done it; I said I really hoped he consulted thoroughly with his attorneys before doing it.

Also I was emphasizing that that was his position, not just mine.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 12:08 am (UTC)

A lot of people don't believe their own propaganda. I don't know Joel, so I don't know if he's one of them, but I've known a lot of both liberal and libertarian activists who spend years talking about how evil the government is, and then are shocked, shocked when the government uses dirty tricks. This is why anyone engaged in civil disobedience actually has to be prepared to face punishment. If your enemy is evil enough to be worth fighting, it's not going to play by the rules. MLK wrote "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"... from jail. Thoreau went to jail, and was actually enraged when someone else paid his fine.

"They plainly did not know how to treat me, but behaved like persons who are under-bred. In every threat and in every compliment there was a blunder; for they thought that my chief desire was to stand the other side of that stone wall.... I saw that the State was half-witted, that it was timid as a lone woman with her silver spoons, and that it did not know its friends from its foes, and I lost all my remaining respect for it, and pitied it."

A lot of modern agitators don't seem to get that avoiding punishment isn't the point. Once you want to stand on the other side of that stone wall, you're fighting on their turf, and they have you.

I understand not everyone can be a Thoreau or a MLK, but if you're not, then maybe you shouldn't try to be.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 02:17 am (UTC)

Yeah, exactly. I can approve of my friend taking risks in a good cause; I'm just hoping that's what's really happening, rather than his getting careless and stumbling into trouble.

Thu, Dec. 9th, 2010 10:25 pm (UTC)

"........the police position depends upon the sheriff having no record of something it doesn't even openly deny. Which means that they're doing what the police always do when they're in the wrong - they're lying........."
Can't believe they arrested him, as it seemed at the time, he was well within his rights.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 04:34 am (UTC)

That he and his wifes view of things. Let's just say there is an alternative set of facts out there. His rendering of events is less than authentic

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 04:40 am (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the facts are accurate as stated.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 05:34 am (UTC)

His rendering of events is less than authentic

Says the anonymous troll.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 06:47 pm (UTC)

Evidence of this claim?

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 06:53 pm (UTC)

You might want to read the documents on the site, and watch the video. (All the action happens in the first three minutes; the other 9 is included in order not to have altered the original recording.)

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 07:19 pm (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. The evidence I'd like to see is that "his rendering of events is less than authentic."

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 08:31 pm (UTC)

Whoops! Sorry; LJ presented the original post and your reply-to-reply but not the stuff in between, and I didn't see the cue to expand replies.

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 04:35 am (UTC)

The bail is outrageous, as at no time was any threat or danger presented. Child molesters get less bail.

Assuming the stated laws are correct, the city has no leg to stand on, and this is purely retaliatory for him daring to challenge them, and of course, to file charges (swept under the table) when they violated the rules themselves. This means the judge is either complicit, stupid, or biased.

Of course, being right is no guarantee of success in court, and the city is likely to try to string this along and bankrupt Joel in the process.

It's similar in MO to what happened to Alex Lifeson in Naples, FL. Minor incident, arrest, determination that the arrestee actually had serious money and legal backup, pile on as many BS charges as possible, settle for a misdemeanor.

Is this MO taught at police academies? "When caught screwing up, just arrest as many people as possible for something."

Fri, Dec. 10th, 2010 08:03 am (UTC)

A pretty good summary: http://www.popehat.com/2010/12/09/the-empire-strikes-back/