olegvolk: Poisons

Oleg Volk (

olegvolk) wrote,
@ 2008-03-02 21:17:00

Poisons
Movies sometimes feature cyanide capsules or similar poisons used by people to suicide in case of capture. At present, are any such items available for regular commercial sale? In general, what poisons are commonly available due to agricultural or other such use?

(Post a new comment)

	nelliebelle 2008-03-03 03:38 am UTC (link)
	WTF? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	olegvolk 2008-03-03 03:42 am UTC (link)
	I have a question. I ask it. Have you anything helpful to add to your clarifying inquiry? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	I think if one needed to get cyanide.. (Anonymous) 2008-03-04 10:58 am UTC (link)
	http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/nacn.txt It's not that hard. Not explosive, only poisonous fumes, ingredients are not controlled. Writing a book, are we? Remontoire (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ernunnos 2008-03-03 03:52 am UTC (link)
	You want this. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-03 04:15 am UTC (link)
	Well, if you want something bad enough, you can pretty much find it... From Sigma chemical to other houses... There is a bit of record keeping, and it really oughta look like you are using it for legit purposes... As for crafting fake dental work capsules? That's Q's job... (Reply to this)(Parent)

	niteshad 2008-03-03 06:34 am UTC (link)
	If Deadly Doses is as riddled with factual errors as that series's book regarding guns, I wouldn't trust a word of it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ernunnos 2008-03-03 07:49 am UTC (link)
	If you check the reviews, that's the one that gets like 4.5 stars. Everything else gets 2-2.5. I believe that was the first, and then they squandered its reputation on some quick-buck followups. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	jimp220 2008-03-03 04:33 am UTC (link)
	I hear you can get Ricin in Las Vegas (Reply to this)(Thread)

	ulfrikr 2008-03-03 04:46 am UTC (link)
	Jimp220 for the win. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Lots of choices
(Anonymous)
2008-03-03 05:18 am UTC (link)

Oleg,

You get get cyanides via most plating companies -its used in lots of plating methods. You can get sodium azides and similar stuff for indusrtrial chemicals. Heck, you get get chorine as the salt or gas from pool supply companies. The list goes one... lots of stuff out there will kill things.

Many plants grow wild that are bad for people -yew, hensbane, belladonna, etc. You can extract nicotine from cigarettes if you really want to.

Kevin

(Reply to this)

	doctorogenki 2008-03-03 06:08 am UTC (link)
	If you're looking for something discreet and fast acting, I think your only option is going to be ricin. Fast acting but non-discreet would be an injection of KCl/potassium chloride. IM would be relatively quick, but for near instant results you'd need IV access. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	olegvolk 2008-03-03 06:11 am UTC (link)
	Doesn't have to be either. I am looking for the full range of effects (from temporarily disabling to fatal and from discreet to obvious). Feel free to email details if you prefer. The character in "Well-deserved Rest" uses methanol because that's what he knows would do some damage. I'd like to learn other options. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mfree 2008-03-03 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	Well, if you're writing something or looking for a particular effect, let me know. I've got this wierd curiousity about things and it's led me to read quite a few books on toxins and I read MSDS sheets for breakfast. mfree@warped.com Asking about toxins in general is a wild goose chase, just about everything is poisonous to some degree or another. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-03 01:44 pm UTC (link)
	p.s. this is a cover my ass statement, I tend to try to help people out who are writing fiction, the above statement has nothing to do with Real Life (tm). I'm one of those accuracy freaks who thinks that if a book is based in the Real World that it ought to contain things in it that behave like the Real World. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-04 02:12 pm UTC (link)
	given that you're asking a bunch of strangers on the internet, the inherent reliability issues of a collection of suicide methods as collected by a bunch of random strangers on the internet shouldn't be that troublesome. therefore: http://www.spaink.net/varia/suicide_methods.html (hmm, the methods file is in serious need of updating... i need to get in touch with Karin.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	nika1976 2008-03-03 06:13 am UTC (link)
	Ask Heath Ledger... oh wait, he is already dead... anyways, taking the whole bottle of tylenol should work... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-03 10:28 am UTC (link)
	Tylenol poisoning is irreverible in most cases, and quite a slow & agonizing death. Same with ricin, a brother of anthrax, which comes from the seeds of the castor plant, which is widely available. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ilcylic 2008-03-03 04:26 pm UTC (link)
	Same with ricin, a brother of anthrax Anthrax is a disease. Ricin is a toxin. They are in no way related. Acetaminophen poisoning is quite slow, painful, and generally irreversable. It's a terrible way to die. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kbarrett 2008-03-03 08:59 pm UTC (link)
	You don't need to take a whole bottle of Tylenol. A dozen large capsules in one dose will kill most folks. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ilcylic
2008-03-03 09:06 pm UTC (link)

6 grams in one shot? Nah. It's not real great for your liver, but it's unlikely to be fatal. Well, maybe for someone who only weighs 80 pounds.

140 mg per kilo is the generally accepted "likely to be a fatal" dose for a generally healthy person. Obviously, if your liver is already shot, building up to a toxic dose is a lot easier. Or mixing it with booze, which likewise ties up your liver.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kbarrett 2008-03-05 01:08 am UTC (link)
	OK, that 'splains the number ... my info was from some emo kid in europe offing himself. So then a 200 lb man would need 56 500 mg. caplets to be certain of offing himself ... or less if you add other cold product containngthe drug. Well ... it does take a special kind of stupid to down a whole bottle of pills. (Reply to this)(Parent)

niteshad
2008-03-03 06:42 am UTC (link)

FWIW, the poison I hear most commonly used for suicide in the event of capture is/was "shellfish toxin." Though, I don't know specifically what kind of toxins they are referring to.

You can also buy nerve agents over the counter as insecticide, like RAID Wasp & Hornet spray. Though, I suspect your character will want to do some chemistry on that to make it more potent to humans.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	mothwingdust 2008-03-03 08:01 am UTC (link)
	You might be thinking of Tetrodotoxin, which is found in quite a few sea creatures. It's the toxin that makes eating fugu so dangerous if it's not prepared just right. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	antastra 2008-03-03 06:48 am UTC (link)
	Old fashioned arsenic is still used as rat poison. (Reply to this)

	joemclovin 2008-03-03 08:11 am UTC (link)
	Succinylcholine maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succinylcholine#Death I really don't know how easy or hard it is to obtain, but it's suypposed to be very hard to detect. (Reply to this)

	columbiaist 2008-03-03 01:02 pm UTC (link)
	Oleg, Are you really trying to get on the no-fly list? (Reply to this)(Thread)

He might.
(Anonymous)
2008-03-04 11:02 am UTC (link)

There is this Muslim guy who got regularily harrased on US-Canada border crossing for having once written a letter to a editor in which he was critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians(and was quite civil, if I remember. No calling them nazis or something, just vanilla stuff).

A gun toting libertarian Jew who runs forums concerned with 2nd amendment and is sharply critical of big gov't plus interested in poisons?

A person of interest, to paranoid officials, I imagine.

R.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	staghounds 2008-03-03 01:17 pm UTC (link)
	I check the Guantanamo list every day, just to be sure Oleg isn't on a little tropical holiday. :) BTW, 90 tylenol 3 isn't enough. (Reply to this)

maineshark
2008-03-03 02:11 pm UTC (link)

Lead is toxic in large doses when absorbed slowly.

Lead is toxic in small doses when absorbed rapidly!

In all seriousness, though, there are no "toxic chemicals" - only toxic doses. Absolutely anything is toxic at high enough dosage, and many things that are thought of as "toxic" are completely safe (or even beneficial) at small doses.

In the "cyanide capsule" sort of notion, you'd be looking for something fast-acting, effective in small doses, and absorbable (not something that needs to be injected). That does narrow down the choices a bit.

Of course, in the movies, they take a tiny pill (or break a small vial or somesuch) and die instantly. Even nerve agents don't act quite that fast in such small doses, and there are no "guaranteed kill" substances like that - if they have the right medical supplies handy, they can treat the would-be suicide and prevent his death. In much larger doses, death could be guaranteed, but not in the doses involved with the mythical "hollow tooth" methods.

(Reply to this)

	gail_s 2008-03-03 02:30 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for the smile this morning, Oleg ;) (Reply to this)

	Or... (Anonymous) 2008-03-03 03:08 pm UTC (link)
	In JC Hutchin's novel 7th Son, one of the bad guys has a false tooth device that is actually an RF transmitter and a pressure switch. Whent he assassin bites it, it sends a signal to some explosives and blows up the whole joint - good guys, bad guys, everything. (Reply to this)

neutrino_cannon
2008-03-03 08:26 pm UTC (link)

Supposedly cone snails are called "cigarette snails" as you're supposed to be able to smoke one cigarette before expiring after being nailed by one of those unpleasant little bastards. Being that the venom is injected by a snail of fairly modest size, I can't imagine the dose is very large either.

Doesn't seem to particularly available, but cone snails are common enough. I wonder if you could "milk" them.

(Reply to this)

Chemical sources for suicide are everywhere....
(Anonymous)
2008-03-03 08:58 pm UTC (link)

Speaking as a PhD chemist, the sources for suicide chemicals among household chemicals are essentially unlimited. Most household cleansers such as those containing oxalic acid (rust remover) or NaOH (lime remover) would produce an agonizing death within several minutes to hours after just a few swallows. Others, such as bleach and scouring powder, will produce chlorine gas when mixed. Bad to breath this as it can rot your lungs.

And if you want to venture into a hardware store, there are paint solvents, varnishes, very strong glues, and pesticides.....

They really mean it when they put "Do not ingest" on the bottles.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Chemical sources for suicide are everywhere.... jdege 2008-03-03 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	And here I was worrying when I saw 100 pounds of potassium permanganate, sitting on the shelf. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kbarrett 2008-03-03 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	Other natural toxins: Foxglove ( digitalis ) tea. Rhododendron field honey. Stew with random mushrooms in it ... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-05 04:18 am UTC (link)
	As much as I like leslie, Rhododendron honey is only seriously toxic in a few places in eastern Europe. Deathcap mushrooms though... that will do the job. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	xratedouroboros 2008-03-03 09:23 pm UTC (link)
	HF acid is available in craft stores for etching glass. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-05 10:10 pm UTC (link)
	Well, the organophosphates are insecticides and also act as nerve gases--they're nerve gases tweaked to work on insects. They can be absorbed through skin--adding DMSO would speed absorption. Nicotine can be extracted from cigarettes Cyanide is available from chemical companies--some folks used it to kill wasps. (Reply to this)

Stillnox / Ambien
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 02:39 pm UTC (link)

I read somewhere it's possible to off oneself by taking several stillnox sleeping pills. (my favourite prescription drug.. I have trouble falling asleep due to overly active imagination)

The instruction sheets says never take more than one. I read somewhere some Slovenian serial killer iced himself that way. He took six. I don't know this for sure, but it's a relaxant, makes one sleepy quite quickly(5 minutes). Anyway, it's considered pretty innocuous..

R.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Heath Ledger (Anonymous) 2008-03-06 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	.. apparently managed to die by taking Ambien and something else. It always gave me the creeps, when I was ill and couldn't sleep, taking several pills. Who knows how different drugs interact? Only pharmacists.. R. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-03-07 09:29 pm UTC (link)

If you want messy, most but not all fluoride compounds are decidedly in the effective corner. Hydrogen fluoride can be purchased for artistic, synthesis, and teaching purposes, but I'd strongly advise against huffing it if you have anything to live for. More complicated combinations with more fluorides tend to take things from bad to worse : Instapundit recently linked to a description of ClF3, a fun compound that will burn sand, asbestos, and water, in addition to anything remotely living. ClF3 obviously isn't going to be for sale at WalMart, but it's surprisingly easy to make (if you survive) through fluoridation of chlorine. Fluorine Perchlorate add a nice and disturbingly dangerous tendency to go boom, although it's harder to work with.

Most organic compounds with too many nitrogens tend to be bad, although how bad varies : hydrogen cyanide is the best known one, and can be made on the spot fairly easily from NaCN and H2SO4, neither of which are extremely well guarded molecules (although they've been harder to get at since the Tokyo use, your biggest worry would be getting H2SO4 without the DEA getting interested). Skipping the carbon and tossing a pair of spare nitrogens in place gets you *N3, with a fun and rather poisonous example in NaN3 -- that particular case is fairly comparable to cyanide, but can be made from ammonia, sodium, and nitrous oxide, none of which are particularly difficult to come by.

Add even more and they tend to get explosive, although that's usually not the best method for suicide.

Most everything with a CO sitting around is bad news bears, although possibly too slow to be a useful way to kill yourself. Diethyl Ether, generally just named ether, is another fun one, and particularly nasty since you still find misplaced jugs of it sitting around in older laboratories or hospitals. Very nasty stuff, mostly because of the explosive that settles out of it when it encounters light, oxygen, or metals.

Lye remains a store-shelf item, and a very, very nasty one. It's used to dissolve animal corpses; that can't do you any good.

If you're interested in a cleaner way, nicotine's probably the easiest to come by, and the most effective. 60-120 milligrams of nicotine will kill or seriously sicken an average sized adult, and can either be extracted from tobacco or found in nicotine-based natural insecticides. The phenol in air fresheners would be nasty, too, but you usually need that stuff to go intravenous or come in very high airborne quantities.

(Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-08 02:01 am UTC (link)
	here's some potassium cyanide for sale. http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID=1114&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=26&selection=0&langId=0 sorry I couldn't come up with a link in a more timely manner. (Reply to this)

Mini Sitemap:

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…